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www.goodeatsfanpage.com • View topic - 'Phobe' means fear, not disapproval

'Phobe' means fear, not disapproval

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'Phobe' means fear, not disapproval

Postby ABwannabe » Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:55 am

(getting something off of my chest. I may edit this later for clarity)

For those who don't know about this: 'Duck Dynasty' Star Phil Robertson Suspended Indefinitely for his stating his opinions on homosexuality in a GQ interview.

For full disclosure: I don't enjoy the show -- it doesn't offend me, but I just don't like most (all?) reality TV.

My problem is with the title of the article to which I linked, and how I'm beginning to see people describe Mr. Robertson's comments: "homophobic". The last I heard, "phobic" means an extreme fear. I only read some summaries of his comments -- from sites *critical* of the comments, so I wasn't getting the "rosy" version -- and I didn't see one thing that said "fear". One person has said that there are gay crew members on the show, and that Mr. Robertson treats them with respect. But, because he expressed his personal beliefs, now he's being described as "homophobic." That really bugs me.

Let's say that I happen to comment that Chevy trucks are horrible, will never win any contests, poison the environment, etc, but I still will ride in your Chevy truck to lunch without complaining. Would I be "Chevy-phobic"? No. I could understandably be called judgmental, opinionated, unreliable, uneducated, or any number of things (I may not agree with those names, but can understand the perspective from which they would be said). But not "Phobic".

If we're going to redefine "phobic", then maybe we need to start describing some people as "Christ-phobic" or "conservative-phobic".

To quote from a well-known and very popular movie: "I do not think that word means what you think it means."
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Re: 'Phobe' means fear, not disapproval

Postby okbye » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:21 pm

Words mean what the current culture says they mean and homophobic has come to designate someone who is against homosexuality. Most people assume that when one is vocal about a subject such as homosexuality they are afraid, usually of things they see in themselves.

What is annoying me about this situation is all the outcry over "free speech". You do not have he constitutional right to say whatever you want with no repercussions. You only have protection from government repercussions, he can't be arrested for what he said. But a privately owned tv show has every right to boot his sorry ass to the curb. He has no right to say what he wants as far as his job goes, his rights to free speech were NOT compromised.
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Re: 'Phobe' means fear, not disapproval

Postby ABwannabe » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:20 pm

okbye wrote: Most people assume that when one is vocal about a subject such as homosexuality they are afraid, usually of things they see in themselves.

Well, that sounds just as "intolerant" to me. Unless they're a super-psychiatrist, they have no basis on which to make that assumption, any more than I have to assume a homosexual is a pedophile.

If "homophobe" is acceptable, then I stand by my suggestion that maybe the terms "hetero-phobe" or "Church-phobe" are appropriate. [sarcasm]"Obviously, people wouldn't get so upset by Mr. Robertson's statements if they weren't afraid of something they see in themselves"[/sarcasm].

I agree that his 1st Amendment Rights haven't been violated. I also believe that he's being treated unfairly and by a double standard. A&E is fine with is "culturally insensitive" views as long as it makes them money, but runs as soon as there's an outcry. For some reason I'm reminded of the bigots who say "I'm not racist, I have a black friend"
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Re: 'Phobe' means fear, not disapproval

Postby okbye » Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:45 pm

I'm just saying where the fear part may come in, you are free to disagree. I do not agree with your analogy again though. There is a basis to think that the people who scream the loudest against homosexuality are possibly latently homosexual, historical precedence. Look to your own religious community for examples. There are no examples of homosexuals being any more likely to be pedophiles than straight people (outside the priesthood anyway, but I have a separate theory about that).

When straight people and christians start being the persecuted minority than we can talk about new words to describe the people who don't care for them. Or rather new words will evolve in the language organically.

I don't know about his past transgression, I don't watch that crap. Looks like a constant exercise in ignorance to me and I find the whole idea offensive. Plus I can't stand beardy men :P
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Re: 'Phobe' means fear, not disapproval

Postby Nitro » Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:49 pm

I don't believe A&E should have suspended him. Not that I agree with his comments, but they knew of the family's beliefs. They are literal bible types, it's the reason they have their beards. Probably the majority of people that watch the show have a similar viewpoint. A&E has made a fortune off the show, as has the family. Why stop now?

Or is this what they are doing?
1. Suspend the patriarch of the most popular show on your network
2. Create media frenzy
3. Bring him back
4. PROFIT

But, his first amendment rights were never violated. Some people seem to forget that it only applies to the Government.
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Re: 'Phobe' means fear, not disapproval

Postby okbye » Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:17 pm

I've seen plenty pf pictures of them sans beards. If they are now claiming to be that bibley it's a somewhat recent conversion.
I don't mean to sound cold, cruel or vicious but I am so that's the way it comes out - Bill Hicks

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Re: 'Phobe' means fear, not disapproval

Postby new cook » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:16 pm

I do think the term "homophobe" means fear of homosexuality.

In my experience, people who are homophobic are fearful of it. That is, they feel threatened by homosexuality in some way, whether it's due to a fear of their own latent gayness or another "threat" like changing the status quo and what is considered to be acceptable in society, — that perceived danger is what they fear.

This Phil whatever-his-name-is (I don't watch the show) apparently said that he believed homosexuality would lead to bestiality. That pretty much sounds fearful to me. He's dead wrong, but that's what he's afraid of.

ETA: To your point, ABWannabe, homophobia is fear of the sexual orientation, not necessarily the person him or herself who is gay.

ETAA: Imho, people in general may have accepted the fact that Phil Whatever-his-name-is disapproves of homosexuality although they may disagree with him. But (again, imho) he stepped over the line by making the statement connecting being gay with bestiality. That is just utterly offensive in a beyond the pale kind of way. It's not just giving a soapbox to a myth, it's dehumanizing and vilifying in the worst way and could be incendiary. It's dangerous talk and not to be taken lightly.
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Re: 'Phobe' means fear, not disapproval

Postby carla » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:00 pm

BS. It's all about $$ anyway.

There are more offensive parts. What got me was how happy blacks were and they were never singing the blues:

“I never, with my eyes, saw the mistreatment of any black person. Not once. Where we lived was all farmers. The blacks worked for the farmers. I hoed cotton with them. I’m with the blacks, because we’re white trash. We’re going across the field. ...They’re singing and happy. I never heard one of them, one black person, say, ‘I tell you what: These doggone white people’ — not a word! ...Pre-entitlement, pre-welfare, you say: Were they happy? They were godly; they were happy; no one was singing the blues.”
"While this is possible, it is highly improbable. Robertson is 67 years old, born into the Jim Crow South. Only a man blind and naïve to the suffering of others could have existed there and not recognized that there was a rampant culture of violence against blacks, with incidents and signs large and small, at every turn, on full display. Whether he personally saw interpersonal mistreatment of them is irrelevant."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/21/opini ... .html?_r=0

Slaves created the blues!!!
I'm sure he did work his butt off.
But gimme a break. Look what happened to Paula Deen!

What a bunch of bs the whole thing is. We have so many larger problems. I've read several interesting editorials; I agree with parts of both sides' arguments; and this reality show will burn out eventually, as one article said. Probably this article:
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv ... z2o4gNovlS

And no one's mind will be changed.

Cheers to New Mexico & Utah overturning gay marriage bans.
Resistance isn't about damaging the country, but protecting it.
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Re: 'Phobe' means fear, not disapproval

Postby carla » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:03 pm

ABwannabe, I appreciate your issue with language; with the terminology. Whether dictionaries are descriptive or prescriptive is, or certainly recently has been, a huge discussion/argument in the academic world.

But indeed, in the real world, "homophobia" means a dislike, resentment and disagreement with homosexual individuals and the entire idea of homosexuality (I'm including lesbianism). That's become the meaning and the reality and has been for decades.

Easy to see him for real, search YouTube for "Phil Robertson preaching"

And I AM church- mosque- and temple-phobic. :D Truly.
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Re: 'Phobe' means fear, not disapproval

Postby okbye » Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:05 am

Utah didn't overturn their gay marriage ban, they were told they were in violation of the US Constitution by making a law banning it. They lost their banning law, they did not legalize gay marriage.
I don't mean to sound cold, cruel or vicious but I am so that's the way it comes out - Bill Hicks

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Re: 'Phobe' means fear, not disapproval

Postby new cook » Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:47 am

Holy crap, Carla, he said all that?!?! Just hearing things in bits and pieces, am thankfully out of the full loop. Wow. That is obviously just plain ignorant. Isn't there a stronger word for that in the English language? I guess it never occurred to Phil Robertson (thanks for that info) that any complaining might lead to beatings or worse. And by worse I know you know what I mean.

As to homophobia, I still maintain that anything which is viewed as threatening is feared, and homosexuality is viewed as threatening to some people. Why? Because it's outside their perceived realm of "normal" and they don't understand it, and if there's anything living life can teach us it's that people fear what they don't understand and/or what threatens their comfort zone.

As for the money aspect of this "scandal" on the part of the network, I haven't read enough about their handling of it to form an opinion that says it's PR spin. But I do think they've done the right thing in suspending Mr. Robertson for the reasons I stated in my previous post.
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Re: 'Phobe' means fear, not disapproval

Postby Kinsley » Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:54 am

Carla wrote:“I never, with my eyes, saw the mistreatment of any black person. Not once. Where
we lived was all farmers. The blacks worked for the farmers. I hoed cotton with them.
I’m with the blacks, because we’re white trash. We’re going across the field. ...They’re
singing and happy. I never heard one of them, one black person, say, ‘I tell you what:
These doggone white people’ — not a word! ...Pre-entitlement, pre-welfare, you say:
Were they happy? They were godly; they were happy; no one was singing the blues.”

new cook wrote:Holy crap, Carla, he said all that?!?! Just hearing things in bits and pieces, am thankfully
out of the full loop. Wow. That is obviously just plain ignorant. Isn't there a stronger word
for that in the English language? I guess it never occurred to Phil Robertson (thanks for
that info) that any complaining might lead to beatings or worse. And by worse I know
you know what I mean.

Not to defend the Duck Commander, and I haven't read the entire interview, but society
was very different then, the 60s changed everything...

I am about the same age. I grew up in Baltimore, which isn't rural Louisiana, but in the
50s it was legally segregated. The only "coloreds" or "negroes" that I knew who didn't
work for white people were the men with horse carts who sold produce on street corners
and in alleys, and "picked" the trash". We called them AyRabs (long story). Our
relationship with them was cordial. There was one man with a white horse named Hannah
who supplied much of my mother's fruits and vegetables. He would always give me a
piece of fruit to feed the horse.

We had a class system much like England. People knew their place and there wasn't
much complaining that I heard either. On the surface, it seemed like a happier time.
There certainly wasn't much interracial socializing (see Hairspray). When I did encounter
groups of negroes (that's what Dr. King called himself and his brothers), i.e.: on a bus or
trolley, they did seem happier than similar groups of whites. Maybe they were just more
easily amused, but the thing I remember most is that they laughed a lot, (see the crows
in Dumbo. I can see why people think that scene is racist, but from the perspective of a
white kid, it's pretty close to what I saw).

My family belonged to a country club. We couldn't really afford it, but dad was a serious
golfer and mom was a social climber. There were 3 basic classes of people at the club.
Of course, at the top were the members. They were all white Christians, but our club was
of a low echelon among clubs. We had no Jewish members, but we did have Catholics
and Greeks. The higher level clubs only allowed protestants, but anyone who fit that
definition and had enough money and a good reputation could get in. There were 3 or 4
clubs that only accepted old money. The wives were DAR members, but only allowed
at certain times. The gender gap was almost as wide as the racial one. There were Jewish
clubs too, with their own hierarchy. We played golf matches against them and they entered
the same tournaments. For some reason, I always got along very well with Jews (eventually
married one). I did hear negative private comments from other white kids, but the public
interaction was always friendly.

The club house staff was all colored. There were 2 men I recall who were in charge, and
my parents treated them like friends / equals. My mother cried when one of them died.
The house staff clearly held higher status than the white trash who worked outside as
caddies and grounds keepers. I belonged to both the highest and lowest classes. As member,
I could play golf, eat in the grill room and use the locker room, pool and other facilities, but
on days that I was there as a caddy, I was not allowed in the club house and was expected to
defer to members at all times.

Both of my grandmothers had colored maids. My father joked that Doctor Grandmother
had more respect for her housekeeper Mrs. Lincoln than for my grandfather, who was
basically handyman, gardener and storyteller. We lived upstairs from my grandmother,
who's maid Lena was at least as old as she was. They were seriously old school, had
different rugs and drapes for each season. They did much of the housework together.
As Lena got older, she still came over most days and Grandma continued to pay her.
They'd do some housework together, but they spent as much time just sitting with tea
or coffee and talking. She was Grandma's best friend. (See Driving Miss Daisy)

I'm sure there was plenty of complaining in private about people of other races, (my
dad made rude comments about the driving ability of negroes (that's not what he called
them but he said similar things about women and white people who drove certain
brands of cars). Tension seldom surfaced until the Civil Rights Movement in the 60s.
Almost everyone put on a happy face and tried not to rock the boat.

I guess my point is that nothing is simple and you need to know about circumstances
to understand a situation. I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion. Basically
I see it as another diversion from much more serious political and economic issues,
but it's 4 in the morning and I haven't posted anything in this forum for a while and
some of my friends are getting worked up over it, so...

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Re: 'Phobe' means fear, not disapproval

Postby new cook » Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:11 pm

There were many masks being worn in those days, for sure. And some still being worn today, imho. One kind of mask that was common was the one of cheerfulness. Things weren't always what they seemed; I know you know that.

Kinsley, no doubt there were real friendships forged between people of different races during the Jim Crow era. But society as a whole was far harsher on people with darker skin than light. Slavery may have ended but people were not yet able to live a free life, and though we've come far since then as a society the truth is there still are restrictions in practice.

As you said, the Civil Rights movement rocked the boat, and how. Certain people's sense of "natural order" was upset, the non-whites were no longer content (as racists had deluded themselves into believing) and stopped knowing "their place."
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Re: 'Phobe' means fear, not disapproval

Postby Kinsley » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:07 am

new cook wrote:There were many masks being worn in those days, for sure. And some still being worn today,
imho. One kind of mask that was common was the one of cheerfulness. Things weren't always
what they seemed; I know you know that.

That's true, but poor people can be genuinely cheerful. :wink:

I was just talking about perspective. There wasn't so much media then. Poor people in rural
areas, black or white, didn't hear much. Lee Trevino, a pro golfer of Mexican heritage, who
grew up in Dallas, said that while he came to realize as an adult that he had been severely
disadvantaged as a youth, at the time, it never occurred to him that he was being treated
unfairly. His parents didn't complain about their poverty. The world was the way it was; he
made the best of it and enjoyed himself for the most part.

I suspect that it's more of an emotional handicap to be poor now, than it was 50 years ago,
because our materialistic culture seem to taunt the poor with images of all the luxury that
they will never enjoy.


new cook wrote:Kinsley, no doubt there were real friendships forged between people of different races during
the Jim Crow era. But society as a whole was far harsher on people with darker skin than light.
Slavery may have ended but people were not yet able to live a free life, and though we've
come far since then as a society the truth is there still are restrictions in practice.

In some ways, particularly for young black men, things are worse. Our education, justice
and corrections :evil: systems are severely skewed against them.


new cook wrote:As you said, the Civil Rights movement rocked the boat, and how. Certain people's sense of
"natural order" was upset, the non-whites were no longer content (as racists had deluded
themselves into believing) and stopped knowing "their place."

Then the boat settled for while. Opportunities for minorities increased significantly.
We now have a black President. There have been blacks in leadership positions of
all three branches government at all levels and in the private sector. There are many
famous rich black people.

But there was always still a white majority. That sense of upset of the "natural order"
has now resurfaced and fueled the paranoia of the right, as they realize that they don't
have that majority any more.

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think about whether they should.''
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