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www.goodeatsfanpage.com • View topic - Evolution vs Creationism

Evolution vs Creationism

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Evolution vs Creationism

Postby Kinsley » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:25 pm

ABwannabe wrote:If the discussion continues on the subject of evolution vs creationism,
can we move this to poly-fry? I am sorely tmpted to reply, but I fear
a contradictory position would stir too much for General Chat.

You're on ABw. On the Keith Law thread, I asked:

How do creationists explain God's motivation in creating such
a complex apparent fossil record? :? They must also deny the
billions of years of apparent geological activity that scientists
must have misinterpreted. To me it seems that a God who would
be so cynical as to do all that to mislead us from the truth is hardly
worthy of worship. :roll:

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Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Postby okbye » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:55 pm

There is nothing about the god of the bible that is worthy of worship.
I don't mean to sound cold, cruel or vicious but I am so that's the way it comes out - Bill Hicks

"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand.“ Homer Simpson

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Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Postby ABwannabe » Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:16 am

Kinsley wrote:
ABwannabe wrote:If the discussion continues on the subject of evolution vs creationism,
can we move this to poly-fry? I am sorely tmpted to reply, but I fear
a contradictory position would stir too much for General Chat.

You're on ABw. On the Keith Law thread, I asked:

How do creationists explain God's motivation in creating such
a complex apparent fossil record? :? They must also deny the
billions of years of apparent geological activity that scientists
must have misinterpreted. To me it seems that a God who would
be so cynical as to do all that to mislead us from the truth is hardly
worthy of worship. :roll:


First, thanks for moving this. I was on my phone, and posting is painful, crating a new thread would have been to much.

The most basic answer is "His creation, His rules" but I ralize that doesn't satisfy any but the Christian Crationists.

An argument can be made that God placed everything in place "as if" it had developed, to provide consistency. Let's assume that our understanding of the basic laws of teh Universe are true (gravity, time, etc.). This can be seen as God creating an orderly Universe. Using those laws, scientists can *extrapolate* (a very useful scientific application) a past. This, I believe, is how the Theory of Evolution came about -- a logicial, scientific, application of what is known to infer (or extrapolate) a cause. While this makes sense, it is not necessarily correct. [On the subject of our "facts" not necessarily being correct, how many things throughout history have been scientific "fact", only to later be refuted by later knowledge. I believe it was the city of Troy that was, for hundreds of years, considered merely a myth until acheologists discovered its location. ]

I've recently been reminded of the Phillip K. Dick book Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, better known to some by the movie adaptation Blade Runner. In that book, an android was created with memories, and so beleived that she was an adult female; the reality is that she had been created less than 5 years before. She was created as if she was older, complete with history. That's somewhat the idea I have of cration vs. evolution.

I realize that my above position doesn't cover acheological evidence of transitional species. (I think "transitional species" is the right term for the species that fills the evolutionary gap between two species.) I don't have the time right now to addres that aspect very well.

P.S. Just so you know, I realize that the definition of "Theory" doesn't mean "unproven" or "supposition". I reject the "if evolution is true, then why are there still monkeys" argument as rediculous. I do recognize microevolution, and consider that part of the laws from which evolution has been incorrectly (but quite logically) extrapolated.
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Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Postby Kinsley » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:16 pm

ABwannabe wrote: An argument can be made that God placed everything in place "as if" it had
developed, to provide consistency. Let's assume that our understanding of
the basic laws of teh Universe are true (gravity, time, etc.). This can be seen
as God creating an orderly Universe. Using those laws, scientists can
*extrapolate* (a very useful scientific application) a past. This, I believe,
is how the Theory of Evolution came about -- a logicial, scientific, application
of what is known to infer (or extrapolate) a cause. While this makes sense,
it is not necessarily correct. [On the subject of our "facts" not necessarily
being correct, how many things throughout history have been scientific
"fact", only to later be refuted by later knowledge. I believe it was the city
of Troy that was, for hundreds of years, considered merely a myth until
acheologists discovered its location. ]

That’s really your best example? It was never a scientific fact that, Troy was
a myth; there was just no evidence to the contrary. Science is an iterative
process; the best explanation of the available evidence is accepted by the
scientific community until a better explanation emerges. A better example
would be the belief that the Sun revolved around the Earth until evidence
emerged that the opposite was true.


ABwannabe wrote: I've recently been reminded of the Phillip K. Dick book Do Androids
Dream of Electric Sheep
, better known to some by the movie adaptation
Blade Runner. In that book, an android was created with memories,
and so beleived that she was an adult female; the reality is that she had
been created less than 5 years before. She was created as if she was
older, complete with history. That's somewhat the idea I have of cration
vs. evolution.

That is science fiction. Are you admitting that Christianity is very similar to
science fiction? Blade Runner is one of my favorite movies, but I certainly never
thought that many of its predictions were scientifically possible within the time
frame.


ABwannabe wrote:I realize that my above position doesn't cover acheological evidence of
transitional species. (I think "transitional species" is the right term for
the species that fills the evolutionary gap between two species.) I don't
have the time right now to addres that aspect very well.

Are you saying that dinosaurs and all of the millions of other fossils of
plants and animals that do not currently exist are “transitional species”?
Many of those fossils do not have current descendants. Please take the
time to explain that? If your God did all that, I can only conclude that it
is evidence, as I said, that he is exceedingly cynical, even sadistic, to go
to such lengths to misdirect us from the truth... which you apparently
believe can only be derived by *extrapolating* from ancient texts which
never directly discuss any of these topics.


ABwannabe wrote: P.S. Just so you know, I realize that the definition of "Theory" doesn't
mean "unproven" or "supposition". I reject the "if evolution is true, then
why are there still monkeys" argument as rediculous. I do recognize
microevolution, and consider that part of the laws from which evolution
has been incorrectly (but quite logically) extrapolated.

I think you just contradicted yourself. :?

Wikipedia wrote: Microevolution can be contrasted with macroevolution, which is the
occurrence of large-scale changes in gene frequencies in a population
over a geological time period (i.e. consisting of either rapid or extended
microevolution). The difference is largely one of approach. Microevolution
is reductionist, but macroevolution is holistic. Each approach offers
different insights into the evolution process. Macroevolution can be seen
as the sum of periods of microevolution, and thus the two are qualitatively
identical
while being quantitatively different.

The Artist formerly known as BigCrab


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"They were so preoccupied with what they could do, that they didn't
think about whether they should.''
- Ian Malcolm in Jurassic Park .

"You can't always get what you want; but if you try sometimes,
you just might find, you get what you need."
- Mick
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Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Postby todd » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:51 pm

AB, I'm not trying to pile on but, how old do you believe the earth is since Adam was created?
Do you believe he lived to 930 yrs.old?
Do you believe the events regarding Noah and the flood to be literal?
Thanks.
Last edited by todd on Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Postby okbye » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:48 am

(I don't want to paraphrase something someone else said better so have a meme)

Image

This is a favorite too

"Science knows it doesn't know everything; otherwise, it'd stop. But just because science doesn't know everything doesn't mean you can fill in the gaps with whatever fairy tale most appeals to you."

Dara O'Briain Irish comedian, mathmetician and theoretical physicist
I don't mean to sound cold, cruel or vicious but I am so that's the way it comes out - Bill Hicks

"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand.“ Homer Simpson

Charlie Brooker: "What is the most complicated thing you do in your kitchen?"
David Mitchell: "Worry about death."
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Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Postby ABwannabe » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:31 am

ABwannabe wrote: [On the subject of our "facts" not necessarily being correct, how many things throughout history have been scientific "fact", only to later be refuted by later knowledge. I believe it was the city of Troy that was, for hundreds of years, considered merely a myth until acheologists discovered its location. ]

Kinsley wrote:That’s really your best example? [...] A better example would be the belief that the Sun revolved around the Earth until evidence emerged that the opposite was true.


No, that's not my best exacmple, just one of the first to come to mind. My point still has validity -- the iterative process of science has alreday given evidence that today's "truth" may be disproven in the future, see Wikipedia's list of superseded scientific theories . What we clam to know may be logical and may fit some evidence, but it also may still be false.

ABwannabe wrote: I've recently been reminded of the Phillip K. Dick book Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep,

Kinsley wrote:That is science fiction. Are you admitting that Christianity is very similar to science fiction? Blade Runner is one of my favorite movies, but I certainly never thought that many of its predictions were scientifically possible within the time frame.


I'm "admitting" that this science ficion work (like many others) presents a philosphy that can be applied. Are you saying that no fictional work can be used as a learning tool? In this case, I'm referencing the idea that a history can be constructed by a creator, not to "mislead us from the truth", but to provide a foundation for growth and healthy living; rephrased the constructed history can make the created being more complete. (I referenced Blade Runner because I know you're very familiar with it, so we'd have a common point of reference).

Kinsley wrote:Are you saying that dinosaurs and all of the millions of other fossils of plants and animals that do not currently exist are “transitional species”? Many of those fossils do not have current descendants. Please take the time to explain that? If your God did all that, I can only conclude that it is evidence, as I said, that he is exceedingly cynical, even sadistic, to go to such lengths to misdirect us from the truth... which you apparently believe can only be derived by *extrapolating* from ancient texts which never directly discuss any of these topics.

I never even mentioned extince speicies, so that's not what I'm saying at all. I was merely acknowledging what Keith Law said -- that there exists fossilised "transitional species" which seem to support evolution. Both topics are worthy of another response entirely; sadly, I have still not yet found the time to prepare my response.

ABwannabe wrote: P.S. Just so you know, I realize that the definition of "Theory" doesn't mean "unproven" or "supposition". I reject the "if evolution is true, then why are there still monkeys" argument as rediculous. I do recognize microevolution, and consider that part of the laws from which evolution has been incorrectly (but quite logically) extrapolated.

Kinsley wrote:I think you just contradicted yourself. :?

Wikipedia wrote: Macroevolution can be seen as the sum of periods of microevolution, and thus the two are qualitatively
identical
while being quantitatively different.


Apparently I need to do more research on the full meaning amd implications of "microevolution", as I may have misused the term. I'm referring to the fact that, over generations, varying characteristics of a species will change (hair color, height, immunities, etc.). To me, this is an example of extrapolation or inferrence. Saying that "it happens short term, so that's how it *must* have happened long term" is an extrapolation or derivation. I'll say again, it's very logical just not necessarily correct.

Please note, while I'm obviously speaking from a position of disagreement, I'm *not* trying to persuade you that "I'm right and you're wrong." I'm proposing that a Creationist Point Of View is not necessarily illogical, despite the many illogical people who support it any more than evolution is illogical despite the many illogical people who support it.
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Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Postby ABwannabe » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:37 am

todd wrote:AB, I'm not trying to pile on but, how old do you believe the earth is since Adam was created?
Do you believe he lived to 930 yrs.old?
Do you believe the events regarding Noah and the flood to be literal?
Thanks.

I'll allow it this time :D

Seeriously, I'm doing this on breaks at work, so I have to be careful how much time I can spend on this discussion. I'm already having to pospone some responses to Kinsley.

Essentially, yes to all of the above. I realize that years were counted differently then, and perhaps some rounding errors happened, (so maybe not exactly 930 years, but in that ball park). Certainly yes to Noah and the great flood; note that I *don't* necessarily believe the list of animals is complete (I keep meaning to research that) nor do I believe that all of the animals on the ark were mature or fully grown (you can fit more young elephants than adult ones).
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Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Postby Wanda Woman » Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:28 pm

"When deciding between two competing theories, always go with the one that doesn't involve a magic spell."

- Emo Philips
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Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Postby Kinsley » Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:19 pm

Wanda Woman wrote:"When deciding between two competing theories, always go with the one that doesn't involve a magic spell."

- Emo Philips

I'd like to hear him say that.
Emo on relgion
Emo on religious differences

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"They were so preoccupied with what they could do, that they didn't
think about whether they should.''
- Ian Malcolm in Jurassic Park .

"You can't always get what you want; but if you try sometimes,
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- Mick
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Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Postby nlkdavid » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:36 am

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Choice, so simple, yet so misunderstood...
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